Progressives have long been big adherents of Direct Democracy, where the people vote for lots and lots of things directly to determine the outcome. Think of ballot initiatives. This is different from representative democracy, where people vote lawmakers, who then go and vote the way their big moneyed donors constituents determine. But, NY Times writers Amanda Taub and Max Fisher have a problem with people actually voting for things
Why Referendums Aren’t as Democratic as They Seem
The voters of the world have had quite a year: They rejected Colombia’s peace deal; split Britain from the European Union; endorsed a Thai Constitution that curtails democracy; and, in Hungary, backed the government’s plan to restrict refugees, but without the necessary turnout for a valid result.
Each of these moves was determined by a national referendum. Though voters upended their governments’ plans, eroded their own rights and ignited political crises, they all accomplished one thing: they demonstrated why many political scientists consider referendums messy and dangerous.
When asked whether referendums were a good idea, Michael Marsh, a political scientist at Trinity College Dublin, said, “The simple answer is almost never.â€
“I’ve watched many of these in Ireland, and they really range from the pointless to the dangerous,†he added.
You can see where this is going, no need for more excerpts. I wonder, though, have they explained this to the People’s Republik Of Brokeifornia, which has 17 ballot initiatives on deck for November? Probably not, because the article thinks that citizens are just too stupid to know which way to vote.
How does that accord, though, with voting for representative democracy?
Of course, the big problem here is votes that do not come out the way Progressives want. Then we’re told that direct democracy is a Bad Idea (or they sue to overturn the results of the will of the people).
And, no, the results are not always optimal. Sometimes they are downright stupid. People may vote against their own best interests. Democracy is messy. Would they prefer dictatorships of some fashion (well, yes, they kinda would, but, that is a different story.) How is representative democracy any less messy? People so often do not know what they are voting for, who they are voting for, what they stand for, what they have done, what they plan on doing, their legislative record, or who influences them.
Oh, and let’s definitely take note that one of the things the Times is bitching about is the vote in Columbia. About that
(NY Sun)Â Congratulations are in order for the people of Colombia, who, in a democratic referendum, have rejected the peace deal with the Revolutionary Armed Forces known as FARC. The vote is a rejection of a compromise with a nihilistic Marxist movement whose entry into peace talks was one of the most cynical maneuvers in the history of the Americas. Yet the resulting compact was hailed by nearly every liberal paper and politician in the world (including Hillary Clinton), only to be brought up short by a people who turned out to be smarter than the elites who rule them.
Read the whole thing. Maybe voters are smarter than the Times gives them credit for being.
Every form of government, including democracy, is some form of tyranny. Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority rather than a person, group or party. I keep trying to explain that to john who insists upon taking a poll on everything to determine the outcome. As long as it’s the outcome he likes, of course.
Our brilliant Forefathers got around the tyranny of the group or individual by designing a Constitution that was supposed to protect us from the whims and polls of the nefarious or just plain stupid. That is until FDR decided the Constitution was more akin to toilet paper than law.
In reality once the idea of sovereign states was demolished by Lincoln in the Civil War the Constitutional Republic was pretty much over. I figure if a president is willing to kill 660,000 Americans to prove Washington will rule it’s about over. Now we have few states rights, almost fewer personal rights and soon may have the most corrupt government since Caligula. Oh well, it was good while it lasted.
The Smart Set was against Brexit and the polls backed them up…
The Smart Set was for FARC (commie) amnesty and the polls backed them up…
But apparently there are more than enough deplorable basement-dwelling knuckledraggers who just don’t won’t to go along…
Oh, the Smart Set is for Hillary and the polls back them up…
BUT…
Probably not, because the article thinks that citizens are just too stupid to know which way to vote.
Its always about the left knowing what is best for everyone….
Thats why they are called NANNY STATERS…..
They believe they have all the answers and anyone who disagrees with them are idiots, racists, white Supremicists, Angry old White Men, Religious fanatics who happen to believe in the bible as opposed to the religion of WERE ALL GONNA DIE IF WE DONT RAISE TAXES AND GIVE THE MONEY TO BANGLADESH.
They keep the black and hispanic community perpetually in poverty….they had every chance to pass a comprehensive immigration reform during the time when Harry Reid reduced the margin to just 51 votes…..
They could have done so much for the downtrodden….but alas…….
SOLUTIONS equals DEMOCRATIC IRRELEVANCE…..and they know it so sorry Blacks, Hispanics, women…..NO SOLUTIONS FOR YOU…..just more promises and nothing will ever get done.
AGain….and again….and again…and it will be 2155 and the Democrats will still be promising Blacks and hispanics that ONLY THEY CAN END POVERTY….
Again and again.
Hoagie seems to feel UNAPPRECIATED for all his efforts to educate me. Hoagie seems to hate the USA
And yes Hoagie I think that if you want to live here you are just going to have to adapt to our laws, even the ones that you don’t like.
seems you aren’t looking forward to the next election results, well suck it up you aren’t going to have to suffer your life all that much longer, ess if it gets so bad that you gotta kill yourself.
And Teach the Brexit……. did you see the pound is at a 30 year low?
so Teach you are hoping that the 50 year old civil war in Columbia will reignite?I
I trust American voters, do you?
Are you going to be bellyaching when Clinton is elected?
Are you going to continue to defend the gerrymandering that goes on in your own state?
Do you think it is fair the GOP legislature drew such unfair congessional districts?
Don’t worry john, I know full well there is nothing in heaven or earth that can educate you. I fail to see where I ever indicated I hate the USA. Since I spent three years of my youth fighting for the USA and was wounded twice you obviously don’t know shit from shinola. Just like you (I presume) I obey the law. What do you mean “well suck it up you aren’t going to have to suffer your life all that much longer, ess if it gets so bad that you gotta kill yourself.” I kill myself? What kind of slob are you? That’s about the most disgusting thing anyone ever said to me on line. What motivates a sick brain like that?
You have to remember Hoagie, john thinks the way the US should be is like Venezuela.
john has shown that he hates women, he hates blacks, he hates Jews.
He does love ISIS and the Islamic state. You know, those who wish to destroy the US.
john, like most liberals, loves to have the blood of children on his hands.
You can’t teach or show anything to john because there is no logic to his writings. He is prone to making citation that actually disprove what he is trying to say.
But that’s john. A guy who wants to take your money and your freedom and give it to the government because he believes in the government more than he believes in the people.
John wrote:
Yes, yes, of course, as the elites warned would happen. But somehow, some way, Her Majesty’s subjects, who heard all of the arguments before they cast their ballots, seem to have found other things of greater concern to them, and voted to leave the European Union anyway.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the plebeians have different concerns than what the patricians tell them their concerns should be. Maybe, just maybe, the commoners seem to find what the nobles tell them is for their own good isn’t quite what they see as their own good.
[…] Progressive Haven Of NY Times Suddenly Upset About This Whole “Democracy†Thing […]
John wrote:
And now, the rest of the story, from The Wall Street Journal:
Of course, the learned economists are saying that this is only temporary, but, then again, they failed to forecast the current rise.
When I have walked the streets of London you can hear the Mid day prayer wailing over the gigantic loudspeakers…..
Calling all Muslims to get out their rugs and kneel and worship Allah.
European Union has 100’s and 100’s of NO GO ZONES NOW…..zones you do not go if you want to live because your a non MUSLIM…..
People like John and Jeffery simply don’t get it. Their fears are different then the fears of other people….but they are nanny staters and of course their fears are legitimate and other peoples fears are not.
Its why you cannot reason with them. At all. Period.
Ministers from the central European nation wrote in their report that authorities had “no control” over residents in these neighbourhoods, adding that the growth of radical Islam is “increasing the terrorist risk and imperilling our culture”.
France has identified 751 Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, that the state does not fully control, citing Middle East foreign policy expert Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum.
“One of the results of [multiculturalism] has been to further alienate the young from the nation in which they were growing up and also to turn already separate communities into ‘no-go’ areas where adherence to this ideology [of Islamic extremism] has become a mark of acceptability.” — Michael Nazir-Ali, former Bishop of Rochester.
I could go on an on and on…..had we nominated anyone but trump I would be all in on campaigning for, donating too and encouraging people to get out and vote for the GOP nominee and perhaps we can slow the America’s crawl to EUROPEAN UNIONS total chaos they have created for themselves.
But alas…we nominated Trump who will ensure I think two things…..The GOP will Lose the Senate and they will lose the White House…..
All because Trump has painted himself the ultimate Racist and along with himself he has painted the entire GOP with the same paint brush.
Its too bad we cant form a third party that would include every moderate on the left, right and center and then see who starts winning elections because in the end….this is a centrist country whose policy seems driven by radical elements on both sides….
Such as Cruz endorsing trump because he was threatened with a Primary challenge by the entire GOP against him.
Sad.
Mr Thomas quoted:
The multiculturalists all seemed to think that adding more and more diversity would take heterogeneous cultures and produce a homogeneous, tolerant-of-others culture, but that is the exact opposite of what has actually happened. Instead we have seen ethnic/cultural/religious enclaves scattered about, intolerant of outsiders, prejudiced against anyone who doesn’t look like them, and frequently physically unsafe both for visitors and residents.
President Bush made the same mistake: he assumed that freedom and democracy were so enticing that once the people of Iraq had them, they would be embraced, that Western culture, with perhaps a secularized form of Islam over it, would become the Iraqi norm, the way Iran under the Shah. He guessed wrong on that.
The multiculturalists are little different from President Bush in their thinking: tolerant folks all, they see their own beliefs as so good, so wholesome, so normal, that just everybody will adopt them if only given the chance, and it hasn’t worked out that way.
I could be argued that forced busing for racial integration in the public schools was also supposed to produce a more tolerant, more homogeneous culture in the next generation of Americans. If that was the purpose, it does not seem to have worked all that well.
Forced bussing is a tad different. It created a bunch of pissed-off parents of all colors but they were all Americans. When foreigners obeying a state/religion hostile to all faiths and a declared enemy of America is introduced it’s just plain stupid. When those same foreigners display open hostility to their hosts, plunder the treasury, bomb and murder the people and rape women indiscriminately all while demanding special rights for their beliefs they need to go. Moslems bring nothing needed or wanted to America (or Europe), they add nothing of value and have a religious and cultural belief in the murdering of all who are not moslem. That is the exact opposite of American and the two are incompatible.
Or, in the moslems own words:
Yeah, these pigs want to become Americans. Sure they want to be “homogeneous”. The only people who hate America more are the leftists that bring them here.
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Hoagie wrote:
Given the ‘protests’ of multimillionaire Colin Keapernick and other football players and even the East Carolina University band, I’m not so sure that the left’s social engineering projects haven’t turned some natural born American citizens into non-Americans.
On the basis of half a season, the San Francisco 49ers gave Mr Kaepernick something like $106 million to wind up losing the starting job to Blaine Gabbard, of all people. It took a coach as dumb as Chip Kelly to not just cut him loose.;
AHH but the sorry thing here is this simple truth as seen by the left.
ONLY THE LEFTS FEARS ARE LEGITIMATE….
Any fear by any other group especially the right is not legitimate and down right racist.
So sayeth they all….and the MSM SHOUTED HALLELUJAH! and went back to ENABLING the socialist left.